Everybody has a different way to approach the novel.

 What is your way? Do you write an outline? If so, is it crazily details or sketchy? Or, do you, like myself, fly by the seat of your pants putting one word in front of the other until you get to the end?

I'm beginning to think that the outline has some advantages. Often, writing the way I do, I don't make it to the end because I don't have the foresight and vision to take me there.

Any comments would be appreciated. Could turn into a great discussion.

Thanks in advance!

KevinC:

 What is your way? Do you write an outline? If so, is it crazily details or sketchy? Or, do you, like myself, fly by the seat of your pants putting one word in front of the other until you get to the end?

I'm beginning to think that the outline has some advantages.

 Hi,

 I used to be a seat of my pants writer, and it worked all right for me.  Except for the part where I never finished a long work, never even came close.  It kept me going fine for short stories and for plenty of starts to longer works.

Last year, for NaNoWriMo, I tried something new.  From the book The Weekend Novelist (I think that's the correct name) I took the idea of using an Aristotelean incline to plan out my story.  It isn't crazily detailed, but it did let me get an idea of what the high points and turning points were going to be (if anyone wants to see how it looks, I can scan it tonight and post it).  Most importantly, as far as I'm concerned, it helped me figure out where the story was going.  I had someplace to go, and that helped me to (mostly so far) get there.  Also, from another writing book that I can't remember the name of right now, I took a tip from Sue Grafton.  She uses a planning notebook, and every day before writing she writes down what she plans to write about.  I did that every day in November while I was writing my novel.  I did it as mostly a list with maybe a few extra notes written down (for example (X goes to the cafe to meet Y--she's wearing the new sweater). This was *great*!  I never hit a point where I didn't know what to write next because I had already worked that out before I got started.  But since I was only working out that day's stuff, I didn't get overwhelmed with trying to plan out the whole story in full detail all at once.  Knowing what was coming next really let me stay in the flow of my writing.

Okay, now I'm feeling really rather dumb and guilty.  I found something that worked for me. Works for me.  So why did I stop?  And why am I not writing?  Sigh... I know a lot of it is fears and habits.  And those are probably topics for different posts in different places.  But seriously...I know what to do and how to do it.  Now how to get myself to actually *do it*?  Well, that is why I'm here in this forum, right?

 Ari
 

What a great discussion topic!  Thank you both -- and I would LOVE to see the planning graphic.

My poetry, and often the short fiction, typically spins itself around a thought, phrase, emotion, and I learn and discover as I write, rewrite, discard, play, and try other forms.

For working on a novel, I've found I need a skeleton over which to drape the billows of detail and description.  Part of this is insecurity; I don't want to finish a soul-wrenching work to discover that, somewhere mid-book, I've left a sub-plot unsettled or changed a character's name.

As I write, I may spend longer than anticipated in one arena, and less time in another.  Consequently, I may not end with the number of chapters I first envisioned.  Nonetheless, my chapters are episodic, with natural breaks, and I don't mind shifting from my original chapter plan to achieve that.

One more thing: A basic outline allows me to write out of sequence.  In the end, I may greatly edit and retrofit, but with a plan in place, I have the freedom to follow the momentum. 

I do not write a lot of narrative. I have a couple of short stories and I find it very difficult to write,  more difficult

than a novel. For a novel I have in mind, I am gathering historical information. And I like basic outlines, but

 I work with multiple denotations, details, etc. While I write I add many new things. I compel the text to wander.

In poetry, I follow an internal structure. My poems lend themselves to scultural sense or follow a conceptual

 framework.Of couse, by the time a poem is writen, revised, printed,and read, the events have become the

past-and I am inventing new poems. I prepare first a  writen collage and then I write around it.

 GOYA

Constance Bates:

What a great discussion topic!  Thank you both -- and I would LOVE to see the planning graphic.

I will try to remember to scan it and post it this evening.  

For working on a novel, I've found I need a skeleton over which to drape the billows of detail and description.

What a gorgeous description!  And it's a perfect illustration of writing with a minimal outline. 

Part of this is insecurity; I don't want to finish a soul-wrenching work to discover that, somewhere mid-book, I've left a sub-plot unsettled or changed a character's name.

As I write, I may spend longer than anticipated in one arena, and less time in another.  Consequently, I may not end with the number of chapters I first envisioned.  Nonetheless, my chapters are episodic, with natural breaks, and I don't mind shifting from my original chapter plan to achieve that.

One more thing: A basic outline allows me to write out of sequence.  In the end, I may greatly edit and retrofit, but with a plan in place, I have the freedom to follow the momentum. 

Do you make a plan (or skeleton :) ) for each chapter before you start writing?  If so, how do you estimate how many chapters you might need?  This is something I am still trying to figure out.  Right now, I'm writing my novel without chapters for the most part.  I thought I would go back after the first draft adn figure out what breaks would make appropriate chapter breaks, but I keep wanting to have a better plan than that.

Ari
 

Do you make a plan (or skeleton :) ) for each chapter before you start writing?  If so, how do you estimate how many chapters you might need?  This is something I am still trying to figure out.  Right now, I'm writing my novel without chapters for the most part.  I thought I would go back after the first draft adn figure out what breaks would make appropriate chapter breaks, but I keep wanting to have a better plan than that.

Ari

I'm better able to think within "episodes" -- if you're writing an entire novel-length piece without those breaks, my own methodology may not work at all for you.

In the past, I haven't outlined closely within a chapter, but rather let the chapter write itself within the constraints of what I've decided must happen to move the main plot along.  So, my outline might go like this (note that it's more to guide me as a writer than a conceptual outline), as I'm keeping 3x5 cards to remember facts & trivia about each:

Chapter 1. Intro, current time: At house reception after funeral service

A. Intro all main characters; clear they grew up together in the area and their paths crossed at various times

B. Basics of where characters live, jobs, etc., through nervous, tentative conversation

C. Husband of deceased walks in and all conversation stops

Chapter 2. Flashback 20 years: Focus turns to10-yr-old boy

A. After visit from child services, he's finally going to school

B. Clothing, hair, lack of education points to neglect

C. Clear he has secrets -- don't reveal, just hint; misfit, aware and lonely

Chapters 3 - 14.... he works his way up into mainstream but is never accepted

Chapter 15. Back to reception:

A. Give misleading info, allowing reader to believe the focus boy is the surviving husband.

B. In last paragraphs, hint that the deceased may be a trans-gendered wife and thus the focus boy. 

However, an agent or publisher wants to see a pretty thorough outline, chapter by chapter, and it's REALLY hard then for me to create one from my finished piece.  (And frankly, I don't know how other folks do this, especially with literary fiction -- I think either dense fiction doesn't lend itself to such a close accounting, or I haven't crafted my work well enough to distill it like that. Thoughts, anybody?)

 I'm SO glad to see this discussion revived!  Thank you, Constance!

I've been working on my children's novel again and wishing with all my heart that I'd started with an outline.  Or perhaps what I really mean is that I wish I knew where all this is leading!  I'm at the stage where lots of it is working, but it's time to make some decisions about logistics - like chronology - and about plot and character.  This feels like a Catch-22 moment, as I know the best way for me to make these decisions is to simply start writing, but somehow I'm wary to start writing until I've made the decisions.  Crazy, huh?

 I recently had a dream in which a woman hung up all 200 pages of her novel-in-progress on a clothesline.  She lamented, "Why didn't I write an outline?"  And I said, "Maybe it's just not your way."

Clearly I'm thinking about this, too!

best wishes to all of you writers,

KateSinging

PS - I've adopted the baby-steps technique and have been doing a minimum of 20 minutes daily work on my novel.  This is the smallest step I can take even as I'm confused, and still feel I'm making some progress.  And it does help.

 "Great minds..."  It's good so many of us are facing this at the same time, isn't it?

I dreamed last night I was awaiting service at a fancy restaurant, and because it would be a while, they brought a HUGE slice of carrot cake (my mouth waters...) and promised the chocolate-dipped ice cream cone would come soon, as the meal would be a while.  I was watching them prep the ice cream, fork poised above the cake, and an obnoxious fly kept landing on my hand -- I was brushing it away, again and again, then awoke to realize it was the pup, Maggie, licking at me.  Before I tasted even one bite.   I'm trying to figure out if this is my Self telling me something metaphorically, or if I want carrot cake.

Tell me: What age group are you targeting with your children's book?

cb

 Dear Constance,

That's a marvelous dream!  Reminds me of an Irish story in which a man dreams he dies and goes to heaven where he is offered a large whiskey.  He gratefully accepts and is about to enjoy it, when St. Peter offers him ice.  He declines but the Saint, unwilling to come up short in his hospitality, asks again and again, the drink beckoning all the while to the thirsty man.  Just as the ice plunks into the glass, the man wakes up.  The moral, "Better take your whiskey straight in Heaven if you hope to get it at all!"  True for you, as they say.

My book is aimed at kids 10 - 14.   At least that's what I think. I have much to learn about all of this.  Until now I've just wanted to write my tale and sort all that out afterwards.  I'm not sure that's the best way to proceed, but I've concluded I'm a kind of "learn while doing" writer.  Ideas come to me in yoga class, while doing dishes, walking...  I'm heartened by that because though the thing is growing slowly, it is accumulating layers, like compost, and getting earthier.  I think I'm getting a litle braver.  I mean, since I don't know the end, isn't it better to write something - anything - and see if it will take me there?

Maybe next time I'll plan ahead.  But I'm coming to grips with the fact that I didn't on this one and it's OK.  I like what I've done so far and will keep at it.

How about your, Constance?  I'd love to hear about it!

with a good will -

KateSinging

My most ambitious attempt is/was a full-length novel for middle school, ages 11-13.

My son and I collaborated on a Spanish/English picture book with words accessible to end-of-kindergarten, beginning-first-grade readers.

I have a couple of early grade pieces -- maybe beginning second grade readers.

I think my dream could be interpreted exactly as your heaven-in-whiskey story!  cb

 So, not to push (forgive me if this is a push), but have you thought about getting these works into print?  I ask partly because I've been looking at the "Children's Writer's and Illustrator's Market" over the last few days and am amazed at how many kinds of writing are welcome out there - everything from kids' cook books to novels to biographies.

I got interested in this because I've been working on a couple short articles for a kids' magazine (fabulous actually, called Calliope) and have found myself LOVING this work.

So, maybe it's time to take a nice, big bite of that cake? (Or a sup of the whiskey, if you prefer!)

KS

I fly by the seat of my pants, writing as things come to me like I do with my poetry. I do envy the folks, like the co-editor of my magazine, that have the foresight to sit down and write an outline, creating a map of where they want to go. I've tried to do the outline thing but get more stuck doing that, than I do just writing by the seat of my pants.